Strange, but I think maybe great, New F70/ Patriot settings...
#1
These are using the F70/Patriot, you can control the thresh in disc on these.
I have done some experimenting in high thresh and in my dirt it may be a bit more advantageous.
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?37,2346...sg-2346907
Don't know how they would work on an F75 but I assume close to the same despite that fixed thresh level in disc.

Not sure why but doing it this way keeps my non-DST rig unusually quiet, I am able to bust up the gain to 95-99 and the thresh to +5 to +9 using that Sharpshooter coil which is a little more quiet anyway than my Fisher coils but this high disc, notched in lower area stuff seems to let me turn the thresh and gain a little higher even using the big DD coil and keep my rig unusually quiet with pretty stable signals as long as I don't notch in more than two lower sections.
I believe I am still hearing tones on everything despite that high disc while having all these areas notched in.

Those settings, disc at 65, notch in EVERY other section, DP tones but all other tone selections also work well.
DE speed.
Using DP tones you hear everything but using a fast sweep and decent overlapping all repeatable tones really seem to stand out...especially the high conductive ones.
Usually I go really slow, in the areas I am trying this lately, some woods with mostly better black dirt, this very fast sweep speed seems to give me better less jumpy signals just like most have experienced that hunt in better more normal dirt than I have.

Iron is a very low growl in the background in DP I can ignore effortlessly and any high falsing from iron is easily identifiable because it doesn't repeat much and from more than one direction definitely.
I can hunt efficiently and quickly covering large areas without looking at the screen listening for those more solid repeatable signals and they pick up all metal from big to small both shallow and deep.

Using these settings in some woods recently I have picked up two mercs, two V nickels, clad, and a bunch of bullets and casings.
I used bit DP and multi tones, 4H, as I said those high tones really stand out in either mode but I like DP a bit better.
There are other reasons I have been switching to DP tones more and more off my usual monotone selection, also.
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?37,2351...sg-2351519

These woods have lots of iron, tons of cans from new to old including a bunch of rusting parts on some really old ones, bottle caps galore, beaver tail tabs up the kazoo, nails and a bunch of other junk.
That faster sweep speed in this site with some decent black dirt is working well, yesterday I found several small bullets despite the iron that us still in this site including some very tiny objects despite moving and swinging that coil fast including some small copper jacketed ones and even a tiny 22 bullet casing at several inches deep.
They all sounded off super clear like they were large targets sitting in the surface.
Also a shallow modern quarter that was standing up vertically on edge.
A few days ago I found a 1901 and 1902 V nickels stuck together that were INSIDE a very old steel rusting bottle cap.
The numbers jumped a bit too much but the tone was so solid sounding I had to dig it and I was shocked when I realized what I found.

These settings get deep, stay quiet and more stable at much higher gain and thresh settings than using low disc and I think might be finding me more.
Most targets seem to be identifiable easily, bottle caps and tabs jump more than better targets like coins.
For awhile I ventured away from those woods into a more open play area with about 90-100 years of normal park trash and kept these settings including DP.
A million really fast signals hit me from iron to high, I continued to use that much faster sweep here too, and surprisingly I was still able to ID most targets fairly accurately and pick out the better coin signals and other non ferrous targets.
I dug some screw on bottle caps and several beaver tail tabs but I guessed what these were on every one before I dug them.


Don't know why these settings work this way on this thing keeping it so quiet, deep, sensitive and fast...but you can't argue with success.


The pics below are what I have found using these settings...mostly.
The nice merc and the two buffs were in a coin spill using 4H tones, the worn 1917 merc, .my oldest,  and the two V nickels I was using DP.
The V's were stuck together INSIDE and old rusted bottle cap...a jumpy signal I might have chosen to pass on but the tone was so good, sharp and solid in DP I had to dig it.

The other pic is mostly what I found using these settings in those woods and a few other areas.
There are few coins in there from other hunts using different settings.
About 1/4 of this stuff and the two V nickels were found using that much faster, (for me), than normal sweep speed.
In that pic using the settings I am talking about here from those woods are all those bullets and casings, I think there is an old lead musket or buck and ball in there, that toy car, what I believe is an Alabama tax token but it is wasted, and a couple of wheats...one us a 1916d.
Also that aluminum monkey pin and those head stamps all of which are pretty old.
I wish that wheat was a dime.

I always thought slower speed works better here in my normal sites with huge amounts of iron garbage because some signals here can be ultra short and quick, but maybe not.
I will be going back to a couple other iron infested sites and try these settings and faster sweep speed and see.


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"Reality continues to ruin my life."

Currently using an F70 and Mojave...and now a Nox.
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#2
More thoughts on why I am trying this.

Many have been confused in the past about both notching and exactly how the thresh works.
Using high thresh like this I am finding tiny targets pretty deep...the door is open all the way to let me hear the smallest targets at deep levels.
For regular coin sized targets it might not matter because I have found coins at some decent depths even with that thresh at -5, 6 or more, but if I ever run across a tiny $1 gold coin deep these settings sure might make a difference and maybe even on other masked targets at all kinds of depths, too.


On these using low disc any notching in areas above cuts out targets...with high disc and notching below you are adding targets back in.
In essence high disc and notching back in all areas from iron to zinc is accepting all targets, the same as if disc was at 0...but not exactly because the rig acts differently.
Better maybe, I think..much quieter for sure.

Sure it makes no sense to disc out to max and then notch everything back in...but I have never heard or read about anyone doing it before and nobody ever said I had sense plus if I don't try it, who will?
Look at what I am finding this way...either I am smart to try it or just real lucky, or a bit of both.


Still have more to observe but so far my initial impressions doing it this way it seems to let me use higher gain and thresh while keeping the rig surprisingly quiet and giving me some nice tight and maybe a bit more solid and stable signals than using normal ways with low disc.


What might happen with lower gain down to say 80, 70, 60 or less and even down to 30 I can't say because I haven't tried it...maybe even tighter and better ID's with great unmasking ability in iron and trash?
Will less areas notched in make it even more quiet and stable, I have tried that with great success but not with a fast sweep speed.
And then there are 19 steps on the thresh that can be set that might change things up for better or worse, also, on the F70 and the Patriot.


So little time...so many different combinations to experiment with.
"Reality continues to ruin my life."

Currently using an F70 and Mojave...and now a Nox.
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#3
I don't know much about how the electronics work but this sounds like some valuable information and an interesting experiment. I read your posts a couple times each and would like to recap for my clarity. You're using the following settings:
  • Discrimination: 65
  • Speed: dE (default)
  • Sensitivity: 90 to 95 (very high)
  • Threshold: +5 to +9 (tone on smaller targets)
  • Tones: dP (delta pitch) 
  • Notch (in): Iron, Foil, 5c, Tab, and Zinc
Basically you're "notching-in" everything you've discriminated out and this allows you to crank up the sensitivity and threshold while maintaining stability even in high trash areas. One key to this success is swinging faster than normal (2-3 second arcs or slower?).

One question, you mentioned using the sharpshooter coil. Would this work on the standard 11" DD that comes with the Patriot too?

Thanks for continuing to share your observations and experiments!
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#4
(11-17-2017, 03:52 PM)digger27 Wrote: More thoughts on why I am trying this.

Many have been confused in the past about both notching and exactly how the thresh works.
Using high thresh like this I am finding tiny targets pretty deep...the door is open all the way to let me hear the smallest targets at deep levels.
For regular coin sized targets it might not matter because I have found coins at some decent depths even with that thresh at -5, 6 or more, but if I ever run across a tiny $1 gold coin deep these settings sure might make a difference and maybe even on other masked targets at all kinds of depths, too.


On these using low disc any notching in areas above cuts out targets...with high disc and notching below you are adding targets back in.
In essence high disc and notching back in all areas from iron to zinc is accepting all targets, the same as if disc was at 0...but not exactly because the rig acts differently.
Better maybe, I think..much quieter for sure.

Sure it makes no sense to disc out to max and then notch everything back in...but I have never heard or read about anyone doing it before and nobody ever said I had sense plus if I don't try it, who will?
Look at what I am finding this way...either I am smart to try it or just real lucky, or a bit of both.


Still have more to observe but so far my initial impressions doing it this way it seems to let me use higher gain and thresh while keeping the rig surprisingly quiet and giving me some nice tight and maybe a bit more solid and stable signals than using normal ways with low disc.


What might happen with lower gain down to say 80, 70, 60 or less and even down to 30 I can't say because I haven't tried it...maybe even tighter and better ID's with great unmasking ability in iron and trash?
Will less areas notched in make it even more quiet and stable, I have tried that with great success but not with a fast sweep speed.
And then there are 19 steps on the thresh that can be set that might change things up for better or worse, also, on the F70 and the Patriot.


So little time...so many different combinations to experiment with.

I am still trying to wrap my head around that video link you posted on another thread where Sens was at 1 and Thresh at +9 and was hitting 8" deep.  I would think you would need 'some' amount of sens, say even 20 or so but ??? 


With your current experiment, I will be interested to try some of it out with the standard coil (since I dont have a sharpshooter yet).  I wonder whats going on there with the notch back in and why that would make any difference.  Interesting for sure.  If it works and helps quiet the machine down enough to allow me to crank the thresh without driving me nuts, then woohooo, that would be bingo.
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#5
Great post man.  I love high disc for stability on chatty units like the F70 and Omega.  Then I notch in whatever I want as well.  It definitely does reduce the pop and crackles that EMI and bad ground create.

I almost always go disc 65 on the Patriot...then notch in nickels and zinc if it an older area...or just leave it at 65 in a newer area.
 
I've been meaning to play more with DP tones - but it's hard for me to pull away from 1F once I get going and in a groove.
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Teknetics = T2 Classic - G2+ - Patriot - Liberator 
Fisher = F75+ 
Bounty Hunter = Land Ranger Pro - Tracker 4
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#6
(11-17-2017, 06:59 PM)jmaziarz Wrote: I don't know much about how the electronics work but this sounds like some valuable information and an interesting experiment. I read your posts a couple times each and would like to recap for my clarity. You're using the following settings:
  • Discrimination: 65
  • Speed: dE (default)
  • Sensitivity: 90 to 95 (very high)
  • Threshold: +5 to +9 (tone on smaller targets)
  • Tones: dP (delta pitch) 
  • Notch (in): Iron, Foil, 5c, Tab, and Zinc
Basically you're "notching-in" everything you've discriminated out and this allows you to crank up the sensitivity and threshold while maintaining stability even in high trash areas. One key to this success is swinging faster than normal (2-3 second arcs or slower?).

One question, you mentioned using the sharpshooter coil. Would this work on the standard 11" DD that comes with the Patriot too?

Thanks for continuing to share your observations and experiments!


Pretty much, except I am able to go up higher to even 99 in some spots.
I have tried similar settings using the big DD coil and in open parks I can push the sense and thresh high.
It stays quiet if I notch in no more than 2 lower sections plus I found I can add iron in there too without much change in noise.
I was moving that coil very slow and was quite successful, next time I put the big coil on I will try that much faster sweep speed and see if that makes it even easier to notice the solid signals.


When hunting next to houses in my neighborhood lawns these high maxed out sense and thresh settings won't work, too much EMI from WiFi, power lines and whatever else causing severe jumping...with any coil.
However turning down those two doesn't seem to matter all that much because I can still turn up the sense to the 80's-90's, and sometimes the thresh into the positive also.
Here is a post about me hunting a neighbors lawn with the big coil like this, no pictures anymore because photobucket sucks eggs but there was a lot more found using close to these settings and again that slow sweep speed.
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?37,2378...sg-2378348

The big takeaway here is using the disc and notching features to mitigate noise just as you can by adjusting the sense and thresh.
Maybe you can't push everything high and then notch everything back in as I could easily do in this woods site but I am sure here are optimum settings to most sites using all coils and different combinations of the rest of the settings and amount of notches.
I really don't like hunting with much disc at all, I am too much of a gold hunter to do that and hearing the iron in the ground around here actually makes me a faster more efficient hunter, but in areas where I might have a higher percentage of old coins I don't mind knocking out foil or maybe tabs too or whatever combination might give me a better chance to find old silver, nickels or Indian heads.
I tend to hunt sites more than one time so I will go back and look for gold with different settings some other time.

Here is a home I hunted a million times before but everyone moved out so no WiFi and I could turn it up again here.
One of the first times experimenting with this high, thresh, high disc and notching back in stuff I used the big coil, high disc and maxed settings and was a able to find a bunch of great things including this old piece of severely masked jewelry I never could before.
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?37,2346...sg-2346582

There was one hunt before this that started me on this journey and one after that told me I was into something.
http://www.findmall.com/read.php?37,2346...sg-2346907
I think I was using monotone on all three of these so all tone choices seem to work but using multi tone or DP I just don't have to look at the screen as I hunt so much and I like that.

Ya just gotta go with the flow and adjust things on the fly to whatever the site will allow you to do.
"Reality continues to ruin my life."

Currently using an F70 and Mojave...and now a Nox.
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#7
Well the follow up post makes it make a little more sense in my pea brain. I'm going to give it a try in my crazy yard. I have been experimenting lately with different stuff you've written about and am getting better at listening to alot of sounds but still being able to pick out the real tones even if it's iron. This F70 can be very chatty but like you've said over and over, when it's over a good target there is no doubt. The iffy ones are the challenge that makes this fun and Im making progress but DP tones is a little much, I am using it every hunt for awhile anyway but it does make my head spin trying to cipher out 99 sounds .... HH
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#8
~DK
I am still trying to wrap my head around that video link you posted on another thread where Sens was at 1 and Thresh at +9 and was hitting 8" deep.  I would think you would need 'some' amount of sens, say even 20 or so but ??? 



With your current experiment, I will be interested to try some of it out with the standard coil (since I dont have a sharpshooter yet).  I wonder whats going on there with the notch back in and why that would make any difference.  Interesting for sure.  If it works and helps quiet the machine down enough to allow me to crank the thresh without driving me nuts, then woohooo, that would be bingo.



That low sense on 1 thing...these are not your father's detectors, 1 isn't really 1% out of 99, 50 isn't 50% and so on...all gain settings are much higher than you might think.
Using the sensitivity/gain adjustment it isn't doing exactly what a lot of people think anyway, increasing it does not actually pump up the power or work like the volume knob on a stereo.
I believe I read the transmit power is always constant, maxed out to infinity and beyond at all times.
The gain controls how much of that return signal you want to hear coming back to you.
This signal is composed of the metals in the ground that coil is picking up and reporting back, plus the minerals in the soil too which can make things noisy plus any EMI waves it is picking up from the air and also coming back at you is also in the mix.
Adjusting the sense down isn't really making the machine less powerful but it instead is just tuning out certain parts of that huge amount of signal and data you don't want to hear...enough to make it make sense to you and pleasurable to listen to.
The threshold control is just that, that adjusts the threshold level at which it will report back on signals it picks up.
Adjusted high it is reporting back on everything, adjusted low it is cutting things out...noise mostly but also smaller and/or deeper targets.
Balanced correctly it also does a similar thing as the gain does...it lets in enough signal to let you hear targets but keep out most of the annoying and confusing wall of sound you would hear without a way to control it.

That is why that stuff in the video works, the sense and thresh can be thought of as two different volume controls affecting the huge amount of information that would be hitting us constantly from these very powerful machines.
Turn one up and the other down or reverse it and we are still able to pick up deep targets quietly enough to enable us to notice them.
Balance is the key, trying to get the optimum balance between the two for the quietest environment that still lets in the signals we want to hear at depths we want to hear them at.

You might have read that there is a close relationship between these two controls, owners that understand these units say it all the time and have for years, and this is what they mean.
What I seem to have discovered, or at least noticed and utilized, is a third control...that high disc setting and notching system that also seems to have an effect on how much noise it is letting the machine report back to you and it also seems to have a close relationship with the sense and thresh controls too, almost as much as those two have to each other.
At this particular site setting the disc at 0 and the sense and thresh at the same comparatively quiet levels and this way with the disc maxed, the other settings maxed and everything notched back in on paper, (or in my headphones), it might sound the same but I suspect these are now actually different machines doing the same thing in totally different ways...and the second way might just be better at it.
I have found too many great things in too many sites I have hunted before that I completely missed at normal settings but easily found using these odd settings that would lead me to no other conclusions at this time.

It might not be necessary to use settings with that sense and thresh maxed as I have here, many can find fairly deep targets using way lower than these high settings...I have settings in my head that can do that myself.
But here in my bad soil I just have a feeling I need the most punching power possible to get through as deep as I can in some sites I hunt, and not just deep but more gain seems to be better help at unmasking around all my iron and mineralization.
That is another thing that is different about these machines.
Most people will tell you to turn the sense down when hunting in heavy, trash, iron or mineralization, that high beam in the fog theory that says too much will bounce back and make things confusing and unintelligible.
On other detectors brands maybe but not on the units built on this platform the F75/F70/Patriot and T2.
On these higher gain gives us better resolution in iron and rough soil...not less.
This is programmed into all of these units and why I turn everything up as high as I can a lot and while doing so why I am able to shock some of my hunting buddies that hold some of the targets I can find in their hands and seem more shocked at how deep the hole is they came out of in areas they just passed over.

Settings I use here in the SE. don't work the same as ones I used when I lived out west and hunted in way better dirt, and fantastic settings I used there won't work the same in my dirt or get close to as deep as I could out there which is exactly why I continuously experiment with all these settings...and always will.
You never know what new thing I might learn that might be a key component to my skill set and make me the most successful.
The more different setting combinations I have at my disposal that I have practised with and got good at understanding and using the more successful I can be at a larger range of sometimes totally different sites and conditions.

I don't need to get super deep all the time, 98% of the oldest targets I have found around here are rarely deeper than 5-6" but why take the chance in missing the few rare ones that are deeper, I figure.

Try these or some form of these setting combinations yourself at your sites, fine tune them if needed but something in there could be very advantageous to you sometime in the future...you never know.
"Reality continues to ruin my life."

Currently using an F70 and Mojave...and now a Nox.
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#9
(11-17-2017, 10:19 PM)JConis Wrote: Well the follow up post makes it make a little more sense in my pea brain. I'm going to give it a try in my crazy yard. I have been experimenting lately with different stuff you've written about and am getting better at listening to alot of sounds but still being able to pick out the real tones even if it's iron. This F70 can be very chatty but like you've said over and over, when it's over a good target there is no doubt. The iffy ones are the challenge that makes this fun and Im making progress but DP tones is a little much, I am using it every hunt for awhile anyway but it does make my head spin trying to cipher out 99 sounds .... HH

Exactly.
This is all about those iffy targets, the masked and/or deeper hidden ones you might pass by using other combinations of normal settings.
All shallow non-masked metal targets should be easy to notice by anyone using almost any machine, it's the really difficult ones I have found still hiding in sites hunted to death by myself or many others for decades that I now own makes me think this is worth spending the time learning and understanding.
And I have found too much this year messing around with settings like these to make me think this is all a fluke.
I found two V nickels inside an ancient rusted out steel bottle top for God's sake in some woods that have been hunted by many others since metal detectors were invented.

Use monotone, 1F, 2F or 3-4H if you want and it makes it easier for you.
It all seems to work pretty well.
I like DP because it makes the iron signals low volume and not so annoying in the background...and hunting here I want to know about all the iron.
Also using DP or multi tones those great high tones really stand out and can easily be distinguished from high tone falsing.
If you use these settings and either DP or multi tones run over a hidden high tone coin in a sea of trash or iron and see if that tone doesn't rock you back on your heels a bit...you just have to experience this once to understand what I am talking about.
Somehow, someway these settings seem to enhance the tones on good targets especially the high ones.

When I first started using these settings I used monotone and found a lot of severely masked targets in scoured sites while listening but also while watching the screen...and using a form of these settings and monotone found several great precious metal targets in areas I had hunted dozens of times and missed using other settings on the same machine.
A silver dime in a small hole with big rusted iron under it and what I think is a rusted steel war cent right next to it, a piece of silver jewelry I never noticed before in a tiny lawn and a Barber quarter standing straight up on edge from a park so hunted out most never come here anymore...and more using monotone.
Using DP or multi tones is just another way to do it and fun for me...brings me back to the days when I used the F2 and just swung without looking at the screen just listening for solid tones before I ever looked at the screen which is a big reason I found those two V nickels.
Between the V's, the rusted metal cap surrounding them and the dirt they were hiding in this was a pretty jumpy signal, everything stayed in the higher ranges but the full range was more jumpy than most I usually would go after nowadays.
It was the tone that made me notice and dig this one all the way.
That tone seemed to be way more solid, stable and repeating than the numbers.
Can't really explain exactly everything that was in that tone that did it but something made me stop and examine it further and despite the jumping while checking it out closer my digging instinct was triggered by the sound I kept hearing in my headphones...and right now I am using a cheap set of Sony phones because I have to get a plug to repair my 1000 times better Killer B's.
Would I have done that, stopped and noticed it moving so fast through this large area using any other combinations of lower disc, sense, thresh and tone choice I can't say, what I can tell you it happened using these out of the box settings and no other...this time.
"Reality continues to ruin my life."

Currently using an F70 and Mojave...and now a Nox.
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#10
(11-17-2017, 03:52 PM)digger27 Wrote: disc out to max and then notch everything back in...

Forgive my ignorance but when you say everything from iron to zinc is notched back in, does that mean you are using notch set at 65?
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#11
(11-24-2017, 08:32 PM)jmaziarz Wrote:
(11-17-2017, 03:52 PM)digger27 Wrote: disc out to max and then notch everything back in...

Forgive my ignorance but when you say everything from iron to zinc is notched back in, does that mean you are using notch set at 65?


DISC at 65...notch in iron, foil, nickels, tabs and zinc.
Or any combination of what you are looking to find.

On the F70/Patriot any number in any sections brings them back in.
On the F75 you have 2 notches per section.


I have been using this on my last few hunts and I will write up more about it later but this is cool.
It definitely makes my rig quieter, today I was up to 99 sense and +9 thresh at two different parks and not much noise at all.
Also I get a lot less falsing over iron or anything else.
Plus I think I am getting measurably deeper.
I switched to 4H, sense at 80, thresh at -3, disc at 21 and DE speed for awhile...it was way more chatty, falsed a ton more, jumped around a lot.

Annnnd, I get up averaging all over the place on coins and whatever using all metal, 4H or any other tone choices and those more normal lower settings in my dirt.
Using these I got a lot less, almost none even on targets at depths where it always did using those other, normal settings.
I have no clue why this is happening...but it is.
"Reality continues to ruin my life."

Currently using an F70 and Mojave...and now a Nox.
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#12
Digger thanks again. Your settings always work very well in the conditions they are meant for.
Proud swinger of Patriot, Whites XLT, Digitek.
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